Some Info about Community Relations

[Voltar]

i agree that there's a point to posting suggestions and concerns on the forums which are different than complaints and personal attacks on people.

whereas i'm sure gaile isn't gvg-ing all over the place, i believe her to be reasonable and intent on doing her job well. if any of us were her and saw a post reporting that, "effing this that and the other thing suck and so do you," then we'd file that in our heads as one of those kinds of posts. if we saw a post with an explanation of what's going on and what the problems are with it (for instance...6 player ha is now once again 8 player ha...probably originally an attempt to get more people into it) with enough community support, then that would be something to pass on. if the rest of the team disregards it...well then...she did her job.

as far as i can tell, she's no great pvp tactician...nor is she farming the uw daily and nailing hard mode. that's really not her job...it's ours.

anyway. i initially posted on this thread when it was intended to be a warm fuzzy for the people that give me something to do after work. i think i'm done with it now.

btw, rapture and chicken ftw...read the op. you guys are actually the monkeys in the middle. this wasn't originally a complaint thread. it was hi-jacked to be so by y'all.

[Gaile Gray]

What I see as the prime message lately is this: You want to know what we're doing. You feel we are not telling you enough. You want details, and explanations, and even conversation. The Dev Updates were designed to help address the desire for details, but obviously some are asking for more.

However, conversation takes time, and details and explanations are not without risk. There is a very good reason for not developing in a glass room, for not giving details of what the team is doing. I know some disagree, and they will say "Just tell us the top line info, just give us a working list." The answer--not my answer, but the official answer--is "No." Every time we say "We're going to look at [something,]" somebody takes "a look" as an absolute promise of change. We say we're making an update, and someone starts posting about "HUGE update promised." If we say "[something] is coming" people get impatient for it. If we give a tentative deadline, that gets written in stone in somebody's mind, and he starts a storm of disagreeable protests when it doesn't happen. If there's a delay, or a change in priorities, or a decision to not offer that something at all, there's an enormous outcry.

If there was a "List of What We're Working On" it would be scrutinized, second-guessed, and argued about until the cows come home. If there was such a list, people would be arguing about how to change the order on the list, or criticizing the priorities, or yelling that such-and-such wasn't on the list. How dare the developers set the priorities, huh? It's a fact with any game: Yes, you may want [this thing], but unfortunately, the developers are working on [that other thing]. And all the insults, the QQ posting, the calling for my head on a pike isn't going to change this truth: The developers are in charge of developing this game, and ultimately the developers will make the decisions about everything that goes into the game. Your input is welcome, listened to, respected, and used, when possible. But if you want to play an actual role in making decisions or setting priorities, you are going to have to get a job at ArenaNet.

The irony here is that someone *ahem* is blamed for what are, in your opinion, "bad decisions." But that someone isn't in a decision-making position. And if you think the wrong decisions are being made because someone passed along the wrong message, or didn't pass along your message, you're not paying attention to what I've been telling you, with complete honestly, about the process: I can argue, I can cite forum threads, I can speak against a decision, or push for a different one. But in the end, the decision is outside my control. I can't reject your ideas outright. I can't adopt them wholesale. That is someone else's job, and they do that job very, very well. I cannot change HA. I could not alter Jade Isle. I can't add a hairdresser or change the rules for the ATS. I cannot repair the clipping on the warrior's armour. I can, however, relay your concerns about those things, as I'm supposed to. As I do.

The relationship isn't necessarily about "conversation." It's must more important that we are listening. Ever heard the expression, "You never learn anything with your mouth open?" You learn by reading, listening, and watching the discussions within the community. You guys don't really care what I think about A, B, or C. You only want to know that the team knows what you think about those things. And the team does learn that, through my team's reports, through our heads-up on links, emails, hallways nudges, lunchtime conversations, weekend and late-night emails, and very importantly, through their own reading of the posts that you make.

The people who are involved with skill decisions, or art, or programming, will react to your requests, suggestions, complaints, and demands as they see fit. I assume that they are tracking your concerns, reading the community reports, following the links they are sent. I will say again that they are not getting their information, first and foremost, through me or my team. They are supposed to get their information directly from you. But the strange thing is that when they do, and when they do not react as you wish, you point to CR and say "You didn't do your job," or even more pathetically, "You don't know how to do your job." Oh, no, that's not it at all. You have been heard, but as The Stones say, "You can't always get what you want."

So here's the bottom line:

• We understand that you would like more information, detail, and advance disclosure.
• Company leaders feel that it is not in out best interest to provide the depth of information that you seek.
• We are committed to offering as much information as we are able.
• I have asked (I ask nearly daily) to give more information.
• My requests, for the most part, have been declined.
• I will ask again, but I believe that there will not be a change in philosophy that will lead to "to do" lists or weekly updates on design progress.
• You can hope. I can hope. But neither of us can make that decision.
• But know we are on the same side about this subject.

So, when a skill is improved, or a map is altered, or an emote is expanded, or the interface is improved, or a new mechanic is added, please give your thanks to the designers, artists, and programmers who made that happen.

And if you don't like the change, please feel free to blame me. 'Cause after all, that's what I'm here for.

[Arshay Duskbrow]

All I really want is a Punishing Shot buff....oh and those hairdressers might be nice too.

[Gaile Gray]

Originally Posted by Arshay Duskbrow

All I really want is a Punishing Shot buff.... :P

That's it? Why, that's so easy, let me just whip up that code change and we'll both be happier, eh?

[Tiny Killer]

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

And if you don't like the change, please feel free to blame me. 'Cause after all, that's what I'm here for.

Can I blame you for the fact that I still like this game, or should I blame the rest of the team as well?

[Gaile Gray]

Originally Posted by Tiny Killer

Can I blame you for the fact that I still like this game, or should I blame the rest of the team as well?

Nah, sorry, Tiny Killer. I only get the #@(%&% comments directed at me. I guess you'll have to take a chance and rely on me to relay your positive thoughts to the other team members.

I am not worthy of such.

[Arshay Duskbrow]

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

That's it? Why, that's so easy, let me just whip up that code change and we'll both be happier, eh?

Actually, yes. If Punishing was buffed to where it was a power bow attack elite on par with Burning Arrow, (Let's say, +10...30 damage and 6 second recharge) I'd shut my mouth and keep it shut about anything I wasn't happy about from now on, because I'd be satisfied that my wish was heard and granted.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The developers are in charge of developing this game, and ultimately the developers will make the decisions about everything that goes into the game.

Whether those decisions are biased or not, we shall never know...

[DIH49]

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The relationship isn't necessarily about "conversation." It's must more important that we are listening. Ever heard the expression, "You never learn anything with your mouth open?" You learn by reading, listening, and watching the discussions within the community. You guys don't really care what I think about A, B, or C. You only want to know that the team knows what you think about those things. And the team does learn that, through my team's reports, through our heads-up on links, emails, hallways nudges, lunchtime conversations, weekend and late-night emails, and very importantly, through their own reading of the posts that you make.

You are wrong, I don't want the team to merely know what I think, I want to be able to rely on the PR team to advocate for me. The thing about a conversation is it gives way to understanding for both parties. If you understand, then you can appreciate the strength of feeling and the reasoning behind various positions. If you cannot understand, then what good can you possibly do? I mean this in a strictly non-pejorative sense, if you do not understand our position how can you possibly represent it? It's very nice that the team knows our desires, but that isn't what we are looking for here. This is about a community who does its very best to avoid the PR team and the reasons therefore. We already know that the devs know our desires because we work around the PR team for precisely that reason. You are offering us a one way street we aren't interested in. It is not enough to say that you are in the shadows listening, watching and reporting. We do not want that, what we want is a dialogue. Because saying that you're looking into it is the same thing, in effect, as not saying anything at all. We're not saying the PR team has the authority to make changes, but they should have the authority to tell us about what is being changed. Further, the PR team should understand why I want something changed, because then problems can be adressed at their source.

So you are wrong when you say that I don't care what you think about a given issue. In fact, I care so much I want the PR team to get into GvG so they can come to the conclusions of every other PvPer. It is in fact of extreme importance how you and the rest of the PR team feel on an issue, because to fully advocate for us you need to understand us, and you cannot understand us reporting from the sidelines.

[cosyfiep]

against my better judgement (and my hubby telling me not to) I will post.

what makes people think that the pve people are happy as well? I pve, I am not happy.....however, I dont have anything more than a fun evening at stake with my gaming in gw. So maybe thats it, pve people are just more easy going.

2ndly, yelling at Gaile and Andrew wont accomplish much other than getting it off your chest, if so write it out, preview post and then delete it.
Constructive criticism is what is needed and I do realize that the media we are dealing with allows for such anonymity that people feel they can say anything and get away with it, but still we should try to say things that as the recepient of it would like to hear (eg how would you like to hear "you suck at your job" or 'you have no clue what you are doing"...so walk a mile in those people shoes before you write out that nastey-gram.

I have been in CS as well (worked in the declines dept for a major cc---you want angry people!)....so I have some idea of what the CRs are up against.
However, we also do not know the full roles of these people and they may actually be trying to get our points across (whether or not its done well we also have no clue)----so we are assuming way too much here.

And the point of my post. I agree something needs to be done, people are indeed leaving the game due to frustration that they feel their needs are being ignore and/or unmet. The powers that be dont need to tell us everything that is going on, but we also need to know that we are being heard---there is nothing more frustrating than talking to someone who is not listening, raising your voice to hope they hear and then they say or do something so totally inconcruent with what you were talking about. (and then being told its your fault.)

Ah whatever, it just means that in the long run their probably wont be as many old timers going over to gw2 (me for one) so they at anet will see sales drop and wonder why it happened. And the few that stay will point at these archieved threads and say: "we told you about this in this thread--here".

so the game will continue no matter what I (not just a one voice in millions---I have multiple copies of the game so I count a few more than one) say or do. They already have our money and they are not required to fix a dang thing about the game if they so desire, no matter how loudly we cry, scream or bash.

[Enko]

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

Constructive criticism is what is needed and I do realize that the media we are dealing with allows for such anonymity that people feel they can say anything and get away with it, but still we should try to say things that as the recepient of it would like to hear (eg how would you like to hear "you suck at your job" or 'you have no clue what you are doing"...so walk a mile in those people shoes before you write out that nastey-gram.

constructive criticism is all that's coming from posters like DIH49. granted there's a lot of insult tossing by others but I hope that people can read through a thread and can realize to listen up when someone who knows what they're talking about and can post it in a readable way that conveys their messages.

[Jessyi]

Originally Posted by Rodney King, May 1st, 1992

People, I just want to say, you know, can't we all just get along?

As I was wandering around in a stupor the other night (drunken or otherwise) I got to thinking about this 'ole game. I got to thinking that I've paid ~$150 CDN for the GW trilogy and not one penny more since then. I got to thinking about how much effort has been put into designing and troubleshooting these games. I got to thinking about the content, and how much we've been given, and how we have been rewarded for our participation in these games.

We've been given free content like Sorrow's Furnace. We've been allowed to participate in contests to design weapons and cape emblems. The dev team have gone out of thier way to listen to us on everything we've had to say. The dev team have done everything in thier power to add more to the game, but keep the additions consistent with the original vision they had for the great world of Guild Wars. They've given us so much more to do with titles and hard mode and repeatable content like DoA. There's always somewhere to go and something more to do.

After 4,867 hours and 43 minutes of play at a little over three cents per hour I am 100% confident that I've gotten far more than I've paid for out of this game and I'm still collecting. I've been given the opportunity to play through three continents on two difficulties (and am now currently vanquishing). I've been given the opportunity to mercilessly slaughter countless thousands of human enemies on the battlegrounds of Heroes Ascent and a smattering of guild halls and I've been handily rewarded for my successes. My e-peen is a full 8 inches larger than it was when I began Guild Wars (your results may vary).

We've even been given a way to carry on the legacy of our favorite characters from GW1 to GW2. The dev team have far from forgotten about us. At every chance and bend in the road I know they've been looking out for us as a whole. There have been times when I've posted on this very forum my complaints about the way that certain updates and implementations have been handled. Pobody's Nerfect. I've had issues with PvP balancing in the past, as many of us had. I don't like change. I especially despise large changes, but I try to keep my posting limited to only when I think changes have been unfair or unreasonable (and it ain't none too often).

I defy anyone, anywhere to create a game that will be perfect in the eyes of everyone, everywhere. At best the only thing you'll be able to create is a utilitarian product, and that's just what Guild Wars is. Go get 24 friends and then the 25 of you try to create a perfect concensus among 3.5 million people on a subject as diverse as an entire gaming world. GL buddeh.

I've had my issues with Guild Wars in the past, but maybe I've been more fair in considering the issues than those that Patrick is talking about. Like him, I believe that whenever someone has a legitimate concern they should voice it, but also like him I believe there's no excuse for abusing the representatives that have elected to come to US for OUR input, no matter how frustrated we may be at the time. You can still display some common courtesy over the internet, and considering the fine product that they've created for us I think it's only common sense anyways.

IDK, whatever.

-Jessyi

[XvArchonvX]

As large and grandiose as some of the replies to the devs in this post have been, they by in large come back to the balance of giving and witholding information. What I believe many fail to realize is that everyone has a different opinion of what that perfect balance is. Unfortunately, there is a gross lack of comprehension in the fact that they are only 1 person and there are actually other people that play the game. Not only that, but many fail to comprehend that not everyone that plays the game posts in this forum. Not everyone who plays this game post in the same language. I find it pretty arrogant for so many people to claim that they have a better understanding of the community than the people who have a job dedicated to knowing the community and work on a daily basis with other people who are employed to know the community.

What it comes down to is that a CR's job is to do their best to please as many people as possible with decisions they don't get to make. Sad to say, the simple lack of understanding in this simple fact by so many is staggering.

[mazey vorstagg]

Well, Gaile says that they can't work in a glass room. Although is opposed to my preferences I can see why and so I'm happy to go along with it

See everyone, reasons make happier people

Have a good day Giale and Aneters. Don't let this thread make you sad
Go out, have a smoke/apple (lol) and look at the big blue sky,then think how great life is.

[the_jos]

As a long time and most of the time happy GW player, I don't post surgestions on the forum.
However, this does not mean I am/was totaly happy with the situation.
From my limited perspective, there are/were some problems in GW.
SR could be considered a problem from some points of perspective.
Hexway/Paraway/Ritspike can be considered a problem.
My Mesmer not being able to join Deep/Urgoz's/DoA groups can be considered a problem.
And there are some other, smaller problems.

I do care about those things, but they don't ruin my GW experience.
There is the individual skill/attribute that causes a problem.
That's annoying, but easily identified (and hopefully fixed).
However, there is this more generic problem, like Hexway/Ritspike/Paraway, mesmers in elite areas. Even the SR problem has to do with this problem.
Even Lootscaling was implemented because of a more generic problem (bots in this case)
I think this thing that some call meta-game is worth a discussion with the A-net representatives/developers.
Both the PvP and PvE side.

As a mainly PvE player, I don't mind nerfs, I will work out a new build if it's a real problem.
However, I don't see how some nerfs affect the meta-game.

If I could make a wish, I would wish for a seperate (moderator approval for first post) forum or something where this meta-game can be discussed in more detail, knowing that A-net developers do watch and adjust the game if something seems to get out of control. And the representatives pass the developers thoughts there (why they don't consider Hexway a problem atm, for example).
This forum would not have single skill discussions, but how the game disfunctions at a higher level at some points.
At this point, some issues are addressed, but others remain and it's not clear if this is because of time/resources or developers not seeing/understanding the meta-game.

[Lodurr]

Originally Posted by DIH49

You are wrong, I don't want the team to merely know what I think, I want to be able to rely on the PR team to advocate for me. The thing about a conversation is it gives way to understanding for both parties.

You got the nail on the head. There's no comprehension of PvP complaints from our Customer Service Rep. Zero. Not only is there no sign of understanding, but the updates we get barely address the balance problems, leading us to believe that the message isn't getting through. Of course the PvP community is frustrated.

[unbound00]

Originally Posted by Shendaar

I agree that a lot of people take it too far(especially those who are just victims of their own incompetence), but when 90%+ of the people posting in a thread are in agreement, there isn't much place left for debates.

No place for debates? I think you are wrong. Lets take for instance a group of skinheads holding a meeting on their view of things and that is open for all general population to discuss with then. That's very intimidating, and the few courageous enough to take them up in discussion would get beaten up within an inch of their lives. So they are 90%+ of the opinion, and that makes their point of view right? That's what often happens in threads here that concern a certain PvP or PvE issue, where the 'other' type of players are flamed out fo the thread and it becomes a turmoil revolving around the same opinions. That does not make take place out of debate because all it happens is that people that share the same/close opinions gather up and silence the rest.

[akazukin cha cha]

Gaile:

I saw you address personal attacks and such on yourself.

But the reoccuring question that still goes unanswered:

Do you think it'd be a hunky dory idea for Anet to hire a PvP oriented CR liason just like you and andrew, that is availible in game to at least ease the tension on the issues that make so many quit? Even if they could do nothing, you know it'd be a wonderful remedy just having someone to voice real pvp details and problems to.

People do quit, often permanently. I have lost two of my favorite guilds to people getting fed up with things that aren't fixed(including the one currently under my name, im the only one of 14 that didn't quit), or the time it took to get improvements made. If we had someone to lay it on the level, speak to players about PvP and at least ease their nerves (even if nothing will be done for some time) I believe it would have a great effect.

There are already so many qualified community members that contribute so much for free, why can they not be considered?

cha cha

[Anti Oath]

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

What I see as the prime message lately is this: You want to know what we're doing. You feel we are not telling you enough. You want details, and explanations, and even conversation. The Dev Updates were designed to help address the desire for details, but obviously some are asking for more.

However, conversation takes time, and details and explanations are not without risk.

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The relationship isn't necessarily about "conversation." It's must more important that we are listening.

What the prime message lately is we want change, we WANT direct conversation. We've been waiting way to long and have not had serious changes to balance the game.

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

There is a very good reason for not developing in a glass room, for not giving details of what the team is doing. I know some disagree, and they will say "Just tell us the top line info, just give us a working list." The answer--not my answer, but the official answer--is "No." Every time we say "We're going to look at [something,]" somebody takes "a look" as an absolute promise of change. We say we're making an update, and someone starts posting about "HUGE update promised."

TBH the problem is how you deliver info to the people. You say it so unclear that everyone receiveing it differently. On the GuildWars.com if there was a list stating exactly what's going on from the ANet staff so there wouldn't be so much confusion. Just TRY this and see how it goes.

Another thing that would solve many problems is having polls ingame or on GuildWars.com, so you get info on what people want. That would also let us coment on things before they're even developed to tell you what we would like out of it.

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

If we say "[something] is coming" people get impatient for it. If we give a tentative deadline, that gets written in stone in somebody's mind, and he starts a storm of disagreeable protests when it doesn't happen. If there's a delay, or a change in priorities, or a decision to not offer that something at all, there's an enormous outcry.

Then why doesn't ANet tell us about these delays and cancelations? Give us an exact answer, that IS what we want anyways.

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

If there was a "List of What We're Working On" it would be scrutinized, second-guessed, and argued about until the cows come home. If there was such a list, people would be arguing about how to change the order on the list, or criticizing the priorities, or yelling that such-and-such wasn't on the list.

You've never tried this approach, but yet you're bashing the idea...Once again, just TRY this. If it's not working theres no one stopping ANet from not posting this list.

Originally Posted by Izzy (from [url

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Isaiah_Cartwright)]I[/url] should see if they would let me list my work in progress update notes here. it would be a cool way to keep people informed on what could be coming.

This is the kind of thing we want to see, to bad it never went through.

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The developers are in charge of developing this game, and ultimately the developers will make the decisions about everything that goes into the game. Your input is welcome, listened to, respected, and used, when possible. But if you want to play an actual role in making decisions or setting priorities, you are going to have to get a job at ArenaNet.

Then hire new people?

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

But in the end, the decision is outside my control. I can't reject your ideas outright. I can't adopt them wholesale. That is someone else's job, and they do that job very, very well. I cannot change HA. I could not alter Jade Isle. I can't add a hairdresser or change the rules for the ATS. I cannot repair the clipping on the warrior's armour. I can, however, relay your concerns about those things, as I'm supposed to. As I do.

I'm sure a lot of the people bashing you all the time don't know this, but I feel that this won't stop until we get to talk to the developers.

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

So here's the bottom line:

• We understand that you would like more information, detail, and advance disclosure.
• Company leaders feel that it is not in out best interest to provide the depth of information that you seek.
• We are committed to offering as much information as we are able.
• I have asked (I ask nearly daily) to give more information.
• My requests, for the most part, have been declined.
• I will ask again, but I believe that there will not be a change in philosophy that will lead to "to do" lists or weekly updates on design progress.
• You can hope. I can hope. But neither of us can make that decision.
• But know we are on the same side about this subject.

So, when a skill is improved, or a map is altered, or an emote is expanded, or the interface is improved, or a new mechanic is added, please give your thanks to the designers, artists, and programmers who made that happen.

Could you post what the Developers had to say (or have them post themselves) about this Thread, I think just hearing what they and knowing that we want changes would be the best place to start repairing Guild Wars and the community.

-Anti Oath

[Retribution X]

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

snipped longest post in GwG history

Why some people are pissed is because you are buffing skills you KNOW people won't use after the buff, and ignoring bugs, which make skills that would be worthwhile, useless.

But really, I think you guys do a good job, but fixing bugs and things would really smoothe things over a lot.

And "Look" turns into "Change" Because half the skills are obviously broken. Looking into anti-melee hexes? There's so many anti-melee hexes, and then you decide to actually BUFF one of them? And you think that makes people want to praise A-net?

It does. Mesmers love you. The other vast majority of PvPers doesn't.

And because we don't like the message, we will continue to Blow the messanger to hell.


I'm not trying to sound sadistic, (Although I am...) I am attempting to convey how at least, a few people Might feel.